Hi Susan,
My wife has a completely buried clitoris and based on my experience, she seems to feel only 30-40% of the sensation other woman feel.
She doesn’t feel my light finger strokes up under the hood of her clitoris as you teach in the Expand Her Orgasm Tonight program. I can’t even GET underneath her hood.
When I stroke harder, I hurt her. It also seems like her “spot” changes every day.
She seems to feel more pleasurable sensation when I stroke her inner and outer lips and the front of her G-area.
The only thing that works on her clit so far is a powerful vibrator. Then it is fun to watch her shine and it works three times better than my finger.
I seriously do not know if this technique will ever work for her.
What am I doing wrong? How can I find the spot on her clit and make it feel good and give her 30 minute orgasms?
Your Friend,
Daniel
Tim’s Advice
Tim recommends a combination of specific clitoral engorgement strokes along with talking her through a date to keep her focused on the sensations.
TALK HER THROUGH THE STROKES TO KEEP HER FEELING SENSATION
In order to keep her focused on feeling his stroke and how her pussy is feeling, Tim suggests talking her though the initial DO dates. He encourages D to verbalize more about what he’s doing as he’s doing it, so she can feel what he’s doing as he explains it to her.
Tim cautions D not to ask her questions that cause her to think about how to answer as he’s DOing her. This is more of a one-sided, slow and sexy running commentary of his actions and experiences.
Also, he shouldn’t expect her to actually talk or use words to give feedback. He should notice any sounds she’s making or movement she’s making as he’s stroking. Are her moans faster, louder, quieter?
When Patti says, “being sensitive to each other” (see below) that’s really him feeling her feeling him. As he’s saying what he’s doing, he’s trying to feel what feels good to her using his finger as an instrument of feedback. And also, when he’s saying, “Now I’m doing lighter pressure, now I am giving you a shorter stroke, he should do this slowly. Change strokesevery 15 seconds or longer – don’t change strokes quickly. Slow time way down during your date. As you change the stroke so you can feel how that feels to her as you are listening to her. She doesn’t need to say anything. Just tell her what you are doing and then listen to any kind of feedback she can give like moaning, saying “yes yes yes.” He has to learn her.
Try many different stroke styles to see what she responds to.
This I can set the mood for a sexy date that gets her more aroused because she’s aware of what he is doing and how much he is enjoying himself. If he relaxes and begins to enjoy stroking her, this pleasure will take the pressure off of her and relax her as well as giving her some explanation of the sensations she’s feeling.
As he’s stroking her clit, he could say, “this is firm pressure and now, this is lighter pressure.”
We call this, “naming our strokes.”
Tim recommends to do each of the strokes for 10-15 seconds. Take your time, change strokes very slowly and smoothly.
(One of the best things about having a DO date with Tim is how smooth all his moves are. He always keeps one hand on me as he puts on more lube or adjusts himself in any way. This makes me feel very secure under his hands.)
Talking her through the date causes her to think about what’s happening in her pussy as he’s stroking her. This keeps her focused on her sensation.
As he’s naming strokes, he should observe her pussy and describe what he sees. He should verbalize to her the changes he notices as he gets her engorged. He should have her thinking about how good it feels to have him stroking her.
“I can feel that your pussy is getting wetter and more slippery.”
“I can see that your outer lips are getting more engorged and puffy.”
“I can see that your inner lips are changing in color from pink to dark rose to deep purple.”
He can also lead her in the way he describes what he sees:
“As you’re getting more turned on I can see your clit starting to get larger.”
“As your pussy is getting more engorged, I can feel that your clit is getting harder.”
He can explain what is happening to him during the date too:
“Your pussy feels so good wrapped around my fingers.”
“As you’re getting more turned on your clit is turning into a little pink pearl and that makes me feel so good.”
“I can feel your introits (the opening to her vagina) plumping up like a wet velvet soft cushion.”
“I can imagine how good it’s going to feel when I put the tip of my penis just inside you.”
Telling her what’s happening as he’s stroking her will give him the ability to get more feedback from her so he understands what she responds best to as he listens to her. He would explain to her, “this is faster, this is slower, longer, shorter,” so she can feel the difference in the strokes.
There may be times after he’s talked her through a few DO dates that she may start to request a particular stroke at a particular time. For example, she might want a longer stroke or a shorter stroke in that moment. When she gives you that quality of feedback, it will help you over time to give her what she likes.
Also, as he’s talking to her and observing, what is actually happening is he’s keeping her in her body and aware of the sensations he’s creating in her body. Instead of letting her mind wander, he’s naming strokes and feeling her feeling those strokes.
SPECIFIC STROKES TO ENGORGE HER CLITORIS
There are specific strokes that will help in this case with D’s wife too. Because he’s been struggling with her anatomy – struggling to find her clitoris and get under the hood, Tim recommends some specific strokes that coax her clit to get hard.
Before you even begin touching her clitoris, focus on bringing blood to her whole vulva. Massage her belly, her legs, her mons venus, her buttocks first. This is Zone 3 touching. This gets her in her body.
Next move in to Zone 2 and begin to engorge her inner and outer labia.
First focus on bringing awareness and sensation to her outer labia (Zone 2 warm up). The vestibular bulbs underneath her outer lips. where her pubic hair is, love to be pressed and kneaded. They will puff up and you can describe that to her as you see it happen. Most women prefer stroking down, WITH the growth of the pubic hair, rather than UP, against the grain of the hair growth. Rolling this puffy skin between your fingers can feel really good to her too.
Move into stroking the petals of her inner labia – with attention on the frilly edges of the inner lips.
Try wider soft squeezing of the inner labia together, as you are pressing them lightly together. If you hold the inner lips together and send arousal energy through your fingertips and deep inside her, this will feel very warm and satisfying to her.
Next you can smoothly move toward her clitoral area, making sure you are applying the kind and amount of lubrication she likes in various areas.
Try softly gathering as much of her clitoris between your thumb and forefinger as is comfortable and lightly squeeze and manipulate all that clitoral skin, imagining it as a little penis. Send energy into the area through your fingers and manipulate all the tissue around and including her clitoral hood and shaft.
As you are lightly holding the tip of her clit between two fingers, use the fingers on your other hand to palpate the shaft of her clitoris. You want to engorge the clit boner down inside at the base of her clit shaft.
You can also try massaging her clitoris through the hood from the top.
Use thumb and index finger to hold her clit while massaging the tip of her clit hood with pointer.
Place the palm of your hand on her mons venus and pull the mons venus skin up and back toward her navel and stroke the whole clitoral area with the other fingertips. You can try a brushing stroke with all your fingers, even fanning your fingers back and forth across the clitoral area in light sweeping motions.
As she’s warmed up, you can also get her clit to pop out by stroking the clit legs (crura) up inside her.
As part of your entire engorgement strategy, also stroke the cum hither on the inside of her vagina and finding those crure along the pubocoygeus bone and stroking them with long strokes and add pressure as she responds. These crure are around the G-Spot, on either side of the G-Spot, in the channels along each side of the inside of her vagina.
What Dr. Patti is saying about both parties being responsible is true, but it will be more helpful in D’s case if he can get her to relax and surrender to her pleasure by telling her to let go of her thoughts and responsibilities for a half hour. Ask her to commit to suspending her worries and focus on her orgasm and how it feels and to allow it to happen. Give her some time to get settled and manage herself through the flight or fight syndrome that naturally occurs as a woman relaxes into her Theta state.
I hope the talking and the stroking advice helps! Let me know how it goes.
Iver’s Advice
This is a lovely and important conversation because in our own particular way we have all been there. I love what each of us is contributing….some more procedure or process oriented (thanks Tim and Suz – I picked up some good stuff there), some more ontological. (Ultimately it’s all ontological as my philosophy professor pointed out).
As men we have wondered where the heck she went to when a few moments ago we felt connected with her current, or when she disliked something that she liked (seemingly) the last 50 times, or when after what we thought was a tepid date she became animated flirting with someone else. We tried to blow up our ego with 50-megaton bombs which of course just made the situation worse.
I wonder if they could use a break from DOing? Maybe there’s too much at stake here for both of them. Have they tried sandboxes in which the entire purpose is to locate her “current?” There are lots of ways to do this that are a long way from the clit, and some of them are described in EHOT. Others are demonstrated in the Sweetrocking DVD. Ditto for learning to not touch, but to feel, each other, and then, in its time, as Patti points out, to move on to feeling you feeling me–the portal to feeling the current.
Back to the clit (or more accurately that particular portal into erotic pleasure), some thoughts:
1. *IF* he’s reasonably kinesthetically subtle it might work well to do oral pleasuring. He can allow himself to sink slowly into the sensations of intimately feeling her clit and outer/inner lips. As always, rule 1 in training or sandboxes (or dates for that matter) is touch for rapture, not for effect. Both of them seem to have become very goal oriented (not surprisingly). Make this a sandbox so as to eliminate any performance expectations. The goal is NOT orgasm, and NOT climbing. It’s discovery. The engine of discovery is curiosity, not technique. Many women find that in oral pleasuring the sensation is dramatically increased with a fingerpad just under the base of the clit (etc). But the main thing is to learn to feel. This should amount to quite a few sessions
- I don’t see anything wrong with using a vibrator if they can actually use it to playfully connect. At least she knows how to access her erotic energy pathways. Depending on what they find wonderful, vibrator (with peaks of course) goes along very well with kissing (hopefully they at least know how to make THAT erotic…if not maybe they should back up and discover that), breast play (no technique…this is about curiosity and discovery), stroking inner thighs, extremely curious and sensitive fingers around and in introitus (building up to a warm dildo, perhaps).
Additional Note Added To This Answer:
Now that I’ve had an opportunity to think about it, I’d like to put my comment on using a vibrator in context – particularly to say that it was somewhat generic and not specifically directed to the guy making the inquiry.
(I think that) vibrators can be useful in certain circumstances, but when used very often can have the effect of reducing one’s capacity for erotic feeling, and particularly the kind of erotic perception that promotes EO. Learning EO requires people to greatly expand their ability to feel, the amount of pleasurable sensation they can ‘contain,’ and their ability to make what usually appears (to them) as “subtle” distinctions of feeling or perception.
This is especially true when using a vibrator to try to feel more – to try to feel enough to “get off” (the explosive form of going over the edge). The orientation here is the explosion rather than “how much, how deeply, can I/we feel?”
It may be possible to employ a vibrator in a playful, discovery-oriented way, for example if currently this is the only way they can come up with for her to get so high that she can teach him how it feels for her to be that high. But of course to do that he would have to learn (as EHOT points out) to “map” what it feels like in his body when she feels that way. So there might be that specific role for vibrator-included play for them to learn to collaborate, to create a conjoined system of sensation. In fact I wonder how well he CAN (or does) feel what she is feeling. (Guess: not very well)
Next I wonder whether she takes erotic journeys with just herself, not using a vibrator–not to get off, just to take erotic journeys. As Patti points out–and very often advocates–it’s important for her to learn herself and learn to locate herself erotically. If she does this I wonder if she invites him to watch her in this very intimate journey, even talks him through what she’s doing and feeling?
I have done women with buried or just generally anatomically challenging to locate clits and from this came to recognize that mastery is about doing energy, not about doing a clit (or anything else). Energy is doing energy. It’s not a finger (or tongue, etc) doing a clit (or G tissue, etc). This is the ‘ontological’ perspective upon which we learn to use technique to best advantage.
I’m a bit puzzled about exactly what’s going on with the ‘buried’ clit and whether it’s painful for her to be overly engorged. Sometimes a clit is anatomically trapped and the pressure of high engorgement could be painful. But this is conjecture, though I have seen something like this happen in a couple of cases. But these women were happy to engorge more internally with very conscious attention to various portions of the G tissue and the Q spot (the place way up in the yoni in front of the cervix – careful though most women need a lot of arousal before they find it fun to have their Q spot played with, and some women find it too grounding to ever enjoy it).
3. Treat all of this as a sacred and awe-some journey in a temple and you’re playing with and discovering god who more than anything wants to be heard, seen, felt, understood, nourished, cherished, feasted on, desired, and taken to sublime places. Stop trying to prove something (advice I need to remind myself to take many times a day). As Ross pointed out, the river of orgasm is already flowing.
Couples of this kind could greatly benefit from observational coaching. Actually they could benefit from hands-on coaching and it would be nice to find a planet where that was possible. But neither kind of coaching will work if they don’t get back to the place where they recognize in their bones that they are friends and partners on a journey that it is truly amazing has been given us to walk.
Love to all,
Iver
PS: How is she at doing him? What can she learn from sandboxes where he is at effect?
Finally, I want to say to everyone in this discussion how lovely it is to be a part of it. What a wondrous group we have–how blessed we are!!
Ross’s Advice
It’s important to think of orgasm as a state of being, not something that happens. We are quite male oriented in our culture in describing and projecting our sexual/sensual experiences and expectation can inhibit authentic experience which changes and evolves. Orgasm is a wave and many series of waves in the ocean of awareness, not a point of experience. We are tuning into a show that is already in progess, eternally. Every woman is different and every woman is different every time. I would suggest having different kinds of dates where you don’t focus on her clit unless she insists on it. Spend time slowly exploring the rest of her body and find what kinds of touch and strokes relax her and create turn on.
Before you have these dates, suggest to her that this time will be about her receiving loving touch on the rest of her body. You learn a lot about her response to your response touching her head, back, stomach and breasts and feet even fingers and ears. Slow is almost always better unless she requests otherwise. Let yourself feel her feeling. It will relieve both of you from any “orgasm” performance anxiety. When she becomes aroused in this relaxed state, she may request more specific attention to her pussy. Good to remember that no one is wrong here. This is an exploration together of the infinite possibilities of connection and turn on. The expansiveness of your attention on her figures significantly in her willingness to be present and surrender to her pleasure and your responding guidance. Even her resistance is an invitation for more.
Also if you pay attention to the level of your own expectation/frustration you relax into the enjoyment of being together and inviting turn on, however it appears. Most of all you get to celebrate your love for each other and for yourselves. all the best. Ross
Dr. Patti’s Advice
Other than get her engorged? Gee… I’d like to be the LAST to answer this one… being a woman! And hear what the guys have to say. But I’m going to go ahead and give an answer anyway. Guys, Suz, chime in too. There are many ways to answer this question… I’ve only gone for one approach. Because there probably are some tricks of the trade I don’t know about. Of course~
~~~
So this is for “D”…
Hi D, thanks for writing. I am going to assume your wife doesn’t have any unusual medical issues that are getting in the way and that your partnership is otherwise in the “normal” range, whatever that means <grin>.
D, I know lots of women with all shapes and sizes of clits and they all come differently. It’s not about the size or location of the clit or the spot or how receded or out their clit is. It’s about the training of the woman’s sensitivity. And the man’s training to her. Some women have clits who are not exposed at all and who can still come just fine. So let’s go beyond clit location for a moment.
Both and each of you must be responsive to the moment of sensation. Each in your own way. It is that simple and that profound.
Thus, to place the explanation for not finding her spot or having your efforts coming out right (pardon the pun) on the receded clit is a red herring. Look elsewhere, D, for the keys to the kingdom!
This is what the EHOT program is all about.
I ask the lady to do herself many times, to learn what turns her on and to be able to develop her sensitivities and be able to communicate about them. I ask the man to read her energy, to give up on recipes.
To your credit, you have placed enough attention to report what has worked and what hasn’t. Clearly, some of your strokes are quite pleasurable to her. Good so far! I am going to assume you are getting her engorged – sounds like you are, from the way you play with her outer lips and she is loving that. So let’s continue on.
But things you say raise red flags. I don’t teach light finger strokes up under the hood. You must learn to feel your women’s energy, to read it, to respond to it. Then you will know the exact stroke your lady wants, and where, and when, for these variables will change. It may be the right place, but then again… you’ll know it when you feel it, and she needs to participate with you for a while in identifying what this feels like (more than where it is).
Where to go? Hmmm…. Are you unconsciously taking your “old mindset” (about your day, about what sex is, what your wife will do, etc.) into the bedroom? If so, let all of this go. Start fresh.
Now start fresh in EHOT. Really fresh. from lesson one. Enter Loverspace. Meet her. Get her wet and connect in a place of turn-on before you touch her.
Start from Lesson one and have fun. I do the 21 lessons all the time with my partner.
So do the 21 lessons with true beginner’s mind. Don’t progress to further lessons until you feel good about finding the spot and following the sensation. This may take more than one session. It may take many. Don’t worry about this, use this as a chance to talk, laugh, connect, and grow deeper and more intimate with one another. Let it take as long as it takes. Communicate and share and play “stop start” and get the hang of what she is wanting and asking for. Meanwhile, I hope she’ll be doing herself as per her part of the program to make it easier for you.
It’s not about the location of her clit. It’s a mindset, and an energy. And practice.
There is so much that could be said, beyond this.
The strokes that hurt… this could be due to the angle of your finger, the pressure, or too much tension in your hand. It could be hundreds of things.
Her spot probably changes as she relaxes and that is not unusual. You can either learn to follow it, or learn to pin down her clit. Some spots wander. Some don’t. Some settle down after a bit. What does it matter when you are riding on the river of sensation? You are always on the spot, wherever it is, when you learn to do this.
Also, the vibrator can numb a woman to sensation. I’d strongly consider she not use that … or use it most sparingly, so she can develop her sensitivity to your touch instead.
And so on. There are many possibilities. That is what practicing in our sandbox dates are all about. The nuances can be fun, intriguing, and the stuff to keep you and your partner interested for a lifetime.
In short, don’t give up. Don’t let things like the clit size/shape/location fool you. Don’t compare your wife to other women (I’m not even going to start on that topic). Be loving. And, be a patient learner.
I am certain that if you follow the EHOT program as I’ve outlined, and start over with a relaxed and confident certainty that you can master this material over time, you’ll begin to reap the kinds of benefits I want for all those who practice this lifelong art.
You’re part of the way there. Keep up the good work, D with this as a base and I will have the best of hopes for you and your partner going forward.
xoxoxox
With love,
Patricia Taylor
”
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